MPs need to plug legislative 'holes' to address foreign interference before next election: party reps

'That's not how this works': Tense scenes at PROC MPs on the PROC committee bickered over points of order following testimony into alleged Chinese election interference.

OTTAWA — The House committee studying foreign election interference heard from top 2019 and 2021 Liberal and Conservative campaign directors on Tuesday, with party officials from both camps speaking about the need for politicians to come together to address any "legislative gaps" ahead of the next vote.

"I know we're spending a lot of time trying to find out who knew what, when, and where. I feel a lot of efforts should be going into, as legislators, putting together legislation to plug these holes. We're all under threat here," said Fred DeLorey, the Conservatives' 2021 national campaign manager.

"All parties could be impacted by this in the next election. It can come from different entities, different countries, and I really wish we could see a more collaborative approach to really drill down on what the issues are, and how we solve them," he told MPs on the Procedure and House Affairs Committee (PROC). "I'm really concerned about the next election, not the past one."

These comments echoed a sentiment expressed by the Liberal Party's 2019 national campaign director Jeremy Broadhurst, who also testified on Tuesday. He said that all political parties have a role to play in taking foreign interference seriously and preventing it from festering during federal races.

In his testimony, Broadhurst—who is now a senior adviser to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau— said the Liberals "stand ready" to play a role in improving Canada's safeguards.

He agreed that there could be improvements to the various panels and protocols installed since 2015, while noting work is already underway to consider this through a series of measures Trudeau implemented earlier this year, in light of concerns raised about Chinese meddling attempts in the last two campaigns.

Broadhurst also noted that prior to the Liberals coming to power, no such mechanisms existed.

"The system will evolve as it should to respond to the needs of the parties… It's good that it's in place, and I hope it continues to evolve and get better," he said.

'AT NO TIME' DID LIBERALS TURN 'BLIND EYE'

Broadhurst was first to testify on Tuesday, alongside Liberal Party National Director Azam Ishmael, who was the party's 2021 campaign director.

Ishmael told MPs that while there may be limitations in what the party can share with candidates about foreign interference concerns raised during campaigns— because that information was shared with a select few security-cleared individuals—his party has not "turned a blind eye" to the issue.

"At no time during my tenure as national director has the Liberal Party of Canada knowingly accepted support from, or turned a blind eye to interference in a Canadian election by any foreign state. We have not tacitly accepted the help of any foreign state, nor have we encouraged it," Ishmael said.

Ishmael told MPs he was limited in what he could reveal due to national security implications and, candidly, because of his lack of recollection of all discussions he was party to during the election period. Nevertheless, he said he was confident in the party's protocols.

"The Liberal Party of Canada has extensive compliance measures in place to ensure strict adherence to the Canada Elections Act and other applicable laws by our candidates, nomination contestants and campaign teams," he said. "We also have rules governing the conduct of nomination campaigns and party processes in order to build confidence in the public's participation in the political process at every stage."

Ishmael suggested the Liberal Party is not alone in being unable to speak to the actions of every one of its campaign volunteers, workers or supporters, but said he was proud of the work done by his party to protect Canadian democratic institutions during and between elections.

This committee has been studying the issue of foreign interference since November, and has since heard from an expanding list of witnesses, prompted by a series of news reports from The Globe and Mail and Global News citing largely unnamed intelligence sources alleging specific attempts by Beijing to alter the outcomes of the last two elections.

Asked by Conservatives about specific reporting from Global News about alleged warnings around 2019 Liberal candidate-turned MP Han Dong’s alleged connections to China that are now subject to a defamation lawsuit, Broadhurst said he couldn't answer certain questions, noting what he said were "inaccuracies" in the reporting.

But, he said as others have, that ultimately the decision to keep or disqualify a candidate is entirely up to the party. Broadhurst also confirmed briefing Trudeau during the campaign about information he'd received from security agencies during the 2019 race.

In his view, what's been lost in the current conversation around foreign meddling is that politicians are most often the victims, and that it's not just foreign states looking to inject themselves into Canadian affairs.

"It is important to also remember that in 2019, we also saw attempts by interest groups with no obvious affiliation with any state, who worked from outside our country to deliberately pollute our political landscape with lies and ideological propaganda designed to smear the reputation of politicians, and confuse and discourage Canadians who may otherwise have been enthusiastic participants in our political system," Broadhurst said.

CONSERVATIVES 'NOTICED SOME RESULTS THAT FELT OFF'

Testifying after the Liberals, DeLorey and 2019 Conservative election campaign lead Hamish Marshall spoke about their awareness of election interference attempts, and the ways certain monitoring efforts could have been more effective.

DeLorey led then-Conservative leader Erin O'Toole's federal election campaign and Marshall was at the helm of then-Conservative leader Andrew Scheer's federal election campaign.

Off the top of his remarks, DeLorey read into the record an internal memo created by the Conservative party about ridings that may have been swung by interference or disinformation campaigns. He said that while during the race the rumblings of potential mischief were anecdotal, after the vote internal alarms grew louder when they "noticed some results that felt off."

DeLorey said it was then that he reached out to local campaigns to ascertain more information, and what was reported back to him was that approximately a dozen ridings in the Greater Toronto Area and in British Columbia may have been impacted.

"There's a strong case to be made that there was a degree of influence exerted by an outside actor in the Chinese community during the 44th general election. From speaking with campaign teams and regional organizers, we believe this influence negatively impacted our standing in the seats," DeLorey told MPs, reading from the memo. He said at the time the party was told there were "legislative gaps" and nothing more could be done.

On these potentially-impacted ridings, the Liberals have suggested the vote outcomes could have been attributable to Conservatives' stance on certain policies such as gun control, and not as a result of targeted efforts to support Liberals and defeat Conservative candidates, as some in the party have suggested.

Like his Liberal counterparts, Marshall, who was part of the 2019 security briefings to party officials, said he couldn’t speak about what was discussed during those meetings. But he said that it seemed to him that civil servants involved in the task force meant to inform the public of any election interference "were more concerned about being accused of interfering in an election themselves by making something public."

"That is something that needs to be fixed going forward," Marshall said, suggesting the government move to make it clear what the threshold for notifying Canadians of interference is during election periods, and perhaps set up more regular meetings between the public service and political party representatives so both sides can better understand each others’ role.

In past meetings, top federal officials have repeatedly told the committee that the integrity of both elections was upheld, despite China's interference efforts.

When Trudeau's chief of staff Katie Telford testified before PROC she offered few new insights on the issue of foreign interference citing the legal limitations she was under, though coinciding documents provided to MPs revealed the dates of high-level intelligence briefings provided on this topic between 2018 and 2023.

Later Tuesday evening, the committee will be hearing from two panels of researchers and public administration and international relations experts.

The committee has outstanding invitations for a trio of former Conservative campaign operatives, whose appearances as of Tuesday morning had yet to be scheduled.